Working together apart: How to make flex work work for you

MELANIE GREEN
Welcome to Remote Works - an original podcast from Citrix. I’m Melanie Green.

This season we are exploring the way hybrid work is affecting people’s work lives. We'll delve into the innovative ways companies are adapting hybrid work, and the challenges that remain for managers and employees.

Today – how much flexibility is TOO much flexibility?

KARLA
There was this feeling of unexpectedness every single day that I found exhausting.

MELANIE GREEN
Karla used to work at a company that was hybrid – employees could work from home a few days a week, and it was up to teams to manage their own schedule. Which sounds great – until it isn’t.

KARLA
Deciding which days to come in became its own challenge. What day should I be in the office to catch the people I need to talk to?

MELANIE GREEN
Maximizing in-office time was crucial. So Karla’s team made a plan.

KARLA
Within my own team, we tried to come up with a model. Okay, we'll come in on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. So we can be in the building at the same time. But the challenge was because I was also working often with teams that were not people that reported to me, or even people I worked with on a regular basis. I had no way of knowing if they would be in.

MELANIE GREEN
Oftentimes, Karla would schedule a meeting that she thought would be in person.

KARLA
You kind of cross your fingers that people would show up. But there are many days I drove in thinking I would have an in person meeting and I'd get there. And it would be like five people on zoom and me by myself in the office.

MELANIE GREEN
It was very frustrating.

KARLA
It's weird how you get resentful. It's odd because there, I had no reason to be resentful, yet I did feel resentful sometimes because I had made an effort to come in and someone else had not

made that effort. And to me it felt like I had done more than they had done yet. I know that isn't really rational and people of all kinds of reasons why they work from home on different days.

MELANIE GREEN
Another challenge? Where to actually sit. Karla’s office used a “hot desk” set up – meaning nobody, including senior executives, had assigned desks.

The theory behind it was that employees would be able to sit near other teams and organic collaboration across the company would start to happen. In reality, though, it created a cliquey atmosphere where people would save seats for their own teammates … or risk not being able to find them altogether.

KARLA
I'd say the worst day was a day that I came in … I think I came in at about nine o'clock in the morning and I spent probably an hour trying to find my team because everyone was distributed throughout these two floors. There was no central location for us to gather unless we booked a meeting room. And I think on that particular day, there was something that was fairly urgent that we had to deal with. And it was so frustrating. Like, you're like texting them on your phone, like where are you seated? And they're like, I'm by the blue pillar on the third floor, in the, like, chill zone. whatever you're trying to, like, where is this spot? I don't even know where it is. And so you'd spend all this time running around, looking for people and then trying to find a space where you could talk quietly or talk at all.

MELANIE GREEN
This office policy where no one has a permanent desk might make sense when not everyone is coming into the office every day, or on the same days. But it ALSO means a major benefit of having an office no longer exists – there’s nowhere to keep your stuff.

KARLA
I felt like I was like in university. I had this big bag and I had a purse and I had like a laptop bag, and I'd have my lunch and I'd have all this crap. I'd be carrying it around the building all day. And inevitably I'd like leave a meeting and leave my purse behind because I was running to another meeting. And you really felt transient. You really felt like you didn't have a place to, to sit and to get comfortable.

MELANIE GREEN
Flexibility is considered to be a key pillar of hybrid work. But it can also be the most misunderstood. When policies are unclear or poorly thought out, “flexibility” can actually become a burden.

In the Citrix Work Rebalanced report, flexibility is the lowest-rated pillar, from both an employee and employer perspective.

According to the report, 28% of employers STILL insist on complete office attendance. Flexibility is one of the lowest-scoring pillars in the report.

64% of business leaders say that employees expect more flexibility than they can accommodate from a business perspective – but this is a misconception that needs rethinking.

Because from an employee perspective, flexibility is one of the most important things a workplace can offer. And two years of working remotely have proven that physically being in the office is not a requirement for a productive work day – in fact, studies have shown that productivity often goes up when people are allowed to work from home.

So where is this disconnect between employers and employees on the value of flexibility coming from?

For some insight, I turned to Sonia Kang. She’s an associate professor of organizational behavior and HR management at the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto.

SONIA KANG
I think that one of the reasons might be, and this might change might be historically that companies weren't necessarily collecting data on preferences, employee preferences, which may change now coming outta the pandemic. I think there's just an assumption that being in the office is better for productivity, for community, without actually having collected those data, to see if that way of thinking is actually supported.

But also some of it, I think, comes from the personalities or the preferences of. People who are making those decisions in organizations. So if you think about, you know, CEOs, people in senior management positions, those are probably people who, for them, you know, being at work, being in the office, just like occupying that space is really a central part of their identity.
They're people who have really gotten ahead by working hard, probably working in the office. And so that's just something that might be their own personal preference. And so they're not really taking into consideration what other people in the company might want. They're kind of projecting their own preferences onto others that work for or with them. And so I think as there becomes more data available showing that there isn't this decrease in performance, there's definite increases in benefits in things like, you know, productivity, wellbeing, when employees are allowed to either engage in hybrid work or some other type of flexible work arrangements, hopefully we'll see less of that disconnect. Like hopefully we'll see more of an, you know, more of a collaboration on the part of employers to really figure out what's best for their employees.

MELANIE GREEN
Okay. So the flip side is, you know, you hear these stories. We saw last year, the great resignation. You see these stories pop up in the media, for example, like the former Apple executive Ian Goodfellow who left Apple to work at Google all because of their back to work

policy. So I'm curious what happens when an employer is inflexible. When you look to the future, how common do you think this will become?

SONIA KANG
I don't think that it's going to be very common at all. I think that taking a hard line on anything is really not , you know, it's not in keeping with kind of the way that people are thinking about work right now and probably into the future. I think, you know, flexibility, agility, the big buzzword, those kinds of things are really necessary for companies moving into the future to be able to retain, you know, their workforce. I think that companies who do maintain a really hard line in terms of presence or, you know, any kind of policy that they have that they're just like inflexible on, are going to need to back that up. They're going to need to be able to show the evidence that this, why we're doing this and be able to justify that to their employees, or you're gonna see what you're talking about, where employees are leaving to go to companies where they can find that flexibility that they're looking for.

MELANIE GREEN
Hmm. Okay. So I'll flip it once again. I mean, is there such a thing as too much flexibility and what I mean by that is what sort of challenges come from allowing a completely flexible work schedule?

SONIA KANG
Yeah, so definitely some of the, like some of the things that you might wanna think about if you're an employer and you are trying to create an effective flex work situation that works for the company and works for employees is definitely thinking about what kinds of joint activities and kind of common time you absolutely need to have in your week. Even if you were working flex time as an employee, I think there should be, you know, some amount of time during the week when you're kind of accountable that you're always kind of reliably on. Right? And that doesn't necessarily mean that you could never say like, oh, I had an emergency or I have to deal with something, I have to change that this week. But for the most part, I think, you know, you, part of this relationship, a flexibility is that you have to give a little. And you get a lot back. And giving a little means, like I might say, you know, Monday from like two to five, I'm always gonna be at my desk. Those are my desk hours. You can always count on me to be there during that time. And also work with other people on your team to kind of create a common “on” time. That's when you can schedule things like, you know, meetings or other activities that you wanna have, that you need to maintain that sense of community. And those touch points are really important, right? Like there, there is something to the argument that being in the office kind of is better for, you know, creating community. But I think you can replicate that if you have this reliable kind of regular time where you're all in the same space together, whether that be physically, whether that be virtually.

MELANIE GREEN
Mm, that makes sense. So, one of the things I've heard from people over the last few seasons as I'm doing the interviews, and this is your expertise is at times working from home can create

sort of a disparity or long term diversity problems. And I'm deeply curious what your thoughts are on that.

SONIA KANG
Yeah, so. Typically when you have different workplace policies that are targeted towards groups that have been, you know, stigmatized or traditionally undervalued in those spaces, those policies become stigmatized themselves. So if we think historically about what flex time has been there for and who has been using that time, I think there's this idea that flex time is mainly there, you know, for women, particularly single moms who might not have a lot of flexibility in their schedule around having to pick up their kids from school or if their kids get sick. Um, and I think because of that, historically things like flex time or even parental leave have become kind of stigmatized in and of themselves where, you know, let's say men are less likely to take that time or if they do take that time, they're kind of hiding it. And so in order for those kinds of policies to become destigmatized, it's really necessary that people who have traditionally been in positions of power in organizations start modeling that that time is there for everyone. So that means, you know, the CEO should be using the flex time. High level managers should be using flex time, being really public about it. And that kind of sets the norm that, you know, look this flex time is for everyone. We really encourage everyone to take it. We're destigmatizing it. And that way it’s not this safety net that’s there for people who are most in need.

MELANIE GREEN
Mm, I hadn't really thought about it like that. Okay. So we've been talking a lot about flexibility and I am also curious. What is your recommendation for a flexible workspace? Is there a most preferable schedule? How should people approach flexible work?

SONIA KANG
So I think really there isn't like a one size fits all. I think a lot of data collection needs to be done like on yourself. So I think really being mindful about your own kind of work rhythms – when you're productive, when you're not productive – is really important to being able to set those times to get the most out of your work. And I think this happens kind of naturally, but people do need to be really mindful about, you know, paying attention to when they're most productive and when they're not. And I think one of the reasons why companies are finding that their employees are, you know, even more productive at home is because they're using those optimal hours for themselves.

MELANIE GREEN
That makes sense. Last question. We're at a moment where we can reimagine work. What lessons do you think we can draw from? And I'm also curious what sort of future you see panning out for us when it comes to flexible work.

SONIA KANG
I think the lesson is just that flex time works. Employers don't need to be afraid to give their employees some freedom and flexibility in choosing their own work hours, choosing their own

work arrangements. And from the employee side, I think it's important for employees to realize that they don't need to be, you know, working all day every day in order to get their work done. It's really about optimizing the time that works best for you. And I think also that kind of future like fit of what works for me, what works for the organization? I think we have a lot of evidence that that's already becoming more and more important to employees. So we see that through the great resignation people moving around so much on their jobs. I think it's because they're looking for, um, a company that kind of works for them in terms of their own individual preferences, gives them the flexibility to set themselves up for success in terms of their work hours and where they like to work.

MELANIE GREEN
So that’s how Sonia Kang sees workplace flexibility. She’s an associate professor of organizational behavior and HR management at the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto.

Flexibility can be a superpower if handled properly – and to see it in action, we’re turning to a company whose self-stated goal is to be one of the most flexible workplaces in North America.

MARCO OSSO
I'd say the key way to describe Tulip's current work arrange arrangement is flexibility.

Marco Osso is the Vice President of Employee Success at Tulip – a company that builds online retail platforms for luxury brands like Chanel and Coach.
So what does flexibility mean to them? MARCO OSSO
So we really try to give employees control over their schedule, work hours, really everything
related to kind of the, the logistics of their job as now. That's where the caveat that they're getting their work done. So Tulip is less concerned about when and where you do your work, uh, and more concerned with just accomplishing the goals and objectives that are, that are set up by the organization, your department, your manager, and your individual goals.

MELANIE GREEN And it’s working – Marco says Tulip has been meeting or exceeding all their goals around employee retention, satisfaction and productivity.

MARCO OSSO
It's working for Tulip. Um, will it always be like that? You know, I can't, I can't predict, but it’s going in a, in a good direction. Everything seems to be working well. Turnover is down over the last few quarters. Productivity seems to be up.

MELANIE GREEN
And their flexible policies really widen their pool of talent and make hiring easier.

MARCO OSSO
We're able to hire a little bit more quickly than we did in the past. We've hired people in Brazil. We've hired people in the Philippines and Sri Lanka. We've hired people throughout Canada and not only hired, but employees have also moved to other provinces within Canada as well.

MELANIE GREEN
These days, Tulip is a remote-first company – meaning that employees can work from anywhere in the world, and don’t have to come into an office if they don’t want to. But this wasn’t always the case.

MARCO OSSO
So prior to the pandemic, Tulip had office space in several different cities. But they still allowed for flexible work schedules, and encouraged employees to work from home a couple of days a week.

MELANIE GREEN
At Tulip, flexibility means different things to different people.

MARCO OSSO
I don't think there is a typical work week at Tulip.

MELANIE GREEN
One of the ways that flexibility shows up in their work culture is with something they call “flex hours.”

MARCO OSSO
So what we've done is we've actually given employees four hours back from a traditional 40 hour work week. They can use those hours for whatever they want. Maybe it's to go pick up their kids from school. Maybe they wanna go for a walk in the middle of the day, or take a nap. It doesn't really matter what they do with those hours.

For me personally, I have a young son.I can pick him up and drop him off at daycare. You know, I'll leave a little bit early sometimes. If I have enough space in my day, um, I can go visit him for half an hour, whereas in the past I'd never be able to do that when I was, you know, in an office.

MELANIE GREEN
When academics like Sonia Kang talk about the importance of data when making operational decisions, Marco is onboard. He says employee surveys have always been part of the culture at Tulip.

MARCO OSSO
In terms of getting feedback from employees, we try to do that on a regular basis. So we have our, our regular employee surveys, but we had, we actually surveyed them specifically about the work environment, what they wanted to do and see. When we first sent the survey to

employees, overwhelmingly, you know, people wanted to work from home. They would say I only, I only wanna come into the office maybe once a week or once every two weeks as the pandemic went on and we continued to survey people. Those scores actually got lower and lower where most people were choosing. I never want to come back to the office or I only wanna come back maybe once a month or maybe for just an employee.

MELANIE GREEN
So Tulip was confident that they were doing the best by their employees when they decided to close most of their office spaces and shift to a remote-first environment.

MARCO OSSO
We did use a lot of data before we made these decisions to fully go this route. So surveys were a big part of that. And you know, the change in the attitudes of even some employees who loved the office culture, loved going in and seeing everybody, you could see their, their stance gradually changed as well to say, I'm a lot more comfortable with my personal schedule now than I was before. And they've kind of embraced the fully remote culture as well.

MELANIE GREEN
But remote doesn’t automatically mean flexible.

MARCO OSSO
You know, if a company says, okay, we're fully remote, people might like that because they're saving the commute or whatever the case is, but they still may feel like they're just tied to their desk from nine to five or nine till six, every day.

MELANIE GREEN
Marco is careful to point out the distinction.

MARCO OSSO
So we've really not only said, okay, we're gonna embrace remote, but we're gonna embrace flexibility. So I think for Tulip, you know, the main draw is, you know, work at your own pace. Uh, as long as the teams are supported, our customers are supported and, um, and the work is getting done. Um, I think we really want to give employees the opportunity to, um, work with whatever fits within their lifestyle. Um, and that may mean somebody works from noon till seven or eight at night because they're not a morning person. Now, if they get approval from their manager and they're able to do that, then that's great. That's not necessarily the case for every role in the organization. There are certain times that you need to be available.
Um, but we really feel that the flexibility is what will set us apart a little bit from the other companies that are going fully remote as well.

MELANIE GREEN
Flexibility means different things to different companies – some places benefit from a couple of days a week of in-person time, some companies will flourish with a fully remote workforce spread out around the world. But allowing employees at least some flexibility over when, where,

and how they get their work done is a key pillar of hybrid work. And it can have huge benefits when it comes to employee satisfaction and retention – and even productivity.

Thanks for listening to Remote Works – an original podcast from Citrix. I’m Melanie Green.

If you want to know more about what employers and employees are saying about hybrid work, you can check out the Work Rebalanced Report, published by Citrix.

Next time on our journey through the world of hybrid work – why trust and empathy are more important now than ever.